new cross flies from my collection

From Halford's early dries to the Catskill dry and everything else that floats on the surface.
redietz
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Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:23 am
Location: Central MD

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by redietz »

The long shanked fly is obviously intended to be a Green Drake (the insect, not the pattern) and so the long shank is needed. If you cover the wing and hackle with a piece of paper, you'll see that the body perfectly straight; it's an optical illusion that the back is thicker than the front. Given that it's a floss body, a don't see anything wrong with an untapered body.

The Leadwing Coachman is harder to explain. There appears to be exposed thread at the tail (or is it tarnished tinsel?)
Bob

ted patlen
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:03 am

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by ted patlen »

flies tyed by anybody will be different from one to another as it is physically impossible to make exact copies...feathers are different, amount of dubbing/floss thread wraps show through, heads ending in a different spot...time of day, how old the guy was...too many factors.

these two flies exhibit the same qualities as flies tyed by any other higher quality COMMERCIAL TYER. (allan, i'm not attacking you, just commenting)

the fly is balanced even as shown with the length of the hook. the hook looks too long for me, but he used it for a reason...i think if he had a hook with a smaller shank length he would have used it instead. extended bodies were around for some time but they're more complicated and time consuming than tying standard catskill patterns. floss bodied dry flies with a picture perfect taper are also time consuming. he most probably used 2 strand floss in one layer to get the thickness he wanted

as for the coachman...aside from the tip of the hackle sticking out from the bottom of the head (he most definitely did not see this...old age? poor lighting? bad eye sight? whatever he missed it) the balance of the fly is perfect. i wrote about that in the first post , if you drop it onto a table it lands upright with a perfect attitude just as fast and as firmly as a cinder block would if dropped onto a beach.

a variant hair or thread wrap, angle of tinsel whatever is part of the uniqueness of the fly should never take away from a fly tyed by a gifted commercial fly tyer. if ALL his flies showed these unwanted attributes, i can't bring myself to call them mistakes, then we wouldn't be looking at them or know about him in the first place. same goes for carrie stevens flies...her heads are NOT those shiny perfect bullet shaped, highly polished things we see at shows, nor are the jungle cock sides all the same, or bergmans wet fly wing angles or throats....

god i love this irrelevant stuff!!!!!

mikevalla
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:16 pm
Location: 1 hr north of the Catskills

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by mikevalla »

I didn't know Rube Cross---and Rube Cross is still dead......but

-Teddy's Cross flies appear archetypal of Rube's style. I've examined maybe 4-5 dozen Cross dry flies---from both private collections and from museums.
Ted's observations are pretty much in line with my own Cross style observations.

-He sometimes tied on long shank hooks (look at them in the "Catskills" book); his turle knot space lengths run from short to moderately long to very long
-It's not uncommon for his dry flies to have a couple of thread winds exposed at the butt; the dubbing at that point, when twisted on-thread, falls away.
-His flies were not cookie-cutter; as Ted mentioned----I don't think he was an overly consistent tier---if you take into account the span of his entire tying career. He was a commercial tier, tying for meat and potatoes (he didn't use hackle gauges, as he said in his own words).

>As mentioned a few times, I'm of the opinion that when commenting on a given tier's style, you have to take into account the era when the tier tied the fly example under discussion. Were the flies tied in the 1920's---30's--early 50's??? Styles and methods change over time---as does eyesight..for certain.

There's an old anecdote out there---that I can recall from the older gents from way back, that if you examine a Rube fly tied in the afternoon (after a few beers) it might look kind of crappy.

(PS: You'll see a bunch more Cross-tied flies in "the new book.")
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Allan
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by Allan »

Ted, I'm not feeling attacked at all :) . I expected my comments would evoke some discussion. You make some good points and I completely agree. I can see how that Coachman would be balanced and be quite fishable. However, I'm just wondering how 'fishable' that top fly would be? Maybe the hackle, tail and proportions balance it well, but it just looks like the hook is wrong for the fly and its weight would drown the fly quickly.

Allan

solitaryangle
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:42 pm
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Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by solitaryangle »

dennis wrote:I have never seen pictures with tails extending straight out from the hook shank. Would like to see more.
Hi guys, I've enjoyed this discussion and the fact that it remains civil, given different opinions, is a bonus!
P1040091x.jpg
P1040091x.jpg (292.12 KiB) Viewed 1329 times
Here is a Gordon Quill allegedly tied by Cross that I currently have on consignment from a customer with quite a collection. Thought I would post it here and ask for your comments. It comes with an authentication by Dave C and he dates it 1925-1935.

Thanks,
Gary

ps. I've hesitated to post on this Board since joining because I am in the process of selling many original Catskill flies through my website and I didn't want to appear "active" here solely for generating interest there. But I couldn't resist passing up this request by Dennis. And as long as you guys appreciate seeing more alleged originals by Christian, Cross, Dette, Hewitt, Steenrod etc, I'd be glad to share on other appropriate forum topics!

catskilljohn
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Location: Yardley,PA- Jeffersonville,NY

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by catskilljohn »

Thanks Gary! I appreciate all the great photo's you sent me, feel free to post anything you want to share. Your collection is a real treasure, and I know everyone here would appreciate it. CJ
"Gentlemen,remove your hats,this is it"
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"Oh he existed in a crude,primitive form in Waltons England"
"But this is where they painted spots on him and taught him to swim"

Allan
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by Allan »

Hi Gary,

Like CJ wrote, I'm thinking many here would enjoy and appreciate seeing flies tyed by those you mention. I know I would.

thanks - Allan

dennis
Posts: 827
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:37 am
Location: Ohio

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by dennis »

solitaryangle wrote:
dennis wrote:I have never seen pictures with tails extending straight out from the hook shank. Would like to see more.
Hi guys, I've enjoyed this discussion and the fact that it remains civil, given different opinions, is a bonus!
P1040091x.jpg
Here is a Gordon Quill allegedly tied by Cross that I currently have on consignment from a customer with quite a collection. Thought I would post it here and ask for your comments. It comes with an authentication by Dave C and he dates it 1925-1935.

Thanks,
Gary

ps. I've hesitated to post on this Board since joining because I am in the process of selling many original Catskill flies through my website and I didn't want to appear "active" here solely for generating interest there. But I couldn't resist passing up this request by Dennis. And as long as you guys appreciate seeing more alleged originals by Christian, Cross, Dette, Hewitt, Steenrod etc, I'd be glad to share on other appropriate forum topics!
solitaryangle,

Thanks for sharing your website with us. You have some interesting collectables there. It will take some time observing it all.

Welcome to the site

Dennis

solitaryangle
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:42 pm
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Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by solitaryangle »

Thanks for the warm reception, guys.

I don't want to hijack Ted's great thread thus far, but will find appropriate places on the forum to post some hopefully useful information and photos.

Gary

ted patlen
Posts: 2021
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:03 am

Re: new cross flies from my collection

Post by ted patlen »

hi gary, we are all friends here and have fun...case closed. please put all your flies on teh site...history needs to be recorded...and i like what you said..."alleged" flies so true...

ted

and no body steals threads we just embellish them

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