New regulations in region 3

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mikevalla
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by mikevalla » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:12 pm

Good points, CJ---

(-There are a few nuts that fish year-long on NYS C&R Trout waters---you know one of them---there's others, too :lol: :lol: :lol: ).
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catskilljohn
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by catskilljohn » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:26 pm

bearbutt wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:38 pm

But it's serious that we need to be vocal about protecting spawning grounds and headwaters. I sent my letter in last week, and urge others to do so also.

bb

Thank you bearbutt....your absolutely right on protecting the spawning areas. Some of these tribs go directly to the Delaware, and some hefty browns run up them. When spawning, even seasoned, wary browns become stupid and distracted, making them easy targets in small water.
Artificial lures also includes gear and treble hooks....

This is bad. There’s no way to convince anyone who even casually respects the environment that it’s a good idea.
I guess the thing that gets me the most is, they go from early closures/late openings in some of the known spawning streams, right to open year round. It’s just the dumbest thing I’ve heard. CJ
"Gentlemen,remove your hats,this is it"
"This is where the trout was invented?"
"Oh he existed in a crude,primitive form in Waltons England"
"But this is where they painted spots on him and taught him to swim"

mikevalla
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by mikevalla » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:32 am

I care about this stuff, you all care about this stuff, John cares about this stuff. But, for every guy that even gives a rat's ass I'll bet there's three who don't care at all. And I'm certain many welcome the proposed changes and don't see this the way we happen to see this. I know one TU member, who is also a "guide," who welcomes the proposed regulation changes.

Who knows the rationale for the proposed changes---could be a combination of factors and zero to do with increasing fishing license income to offset losses elsewhere. I know that hunting license sales are massively down in NYS. That revenue is lost. Fishing licenses I always thought were on the rise. But all the $$ goes into the NYS Fish and Wildlife pot---So, there's a huge shortfall in their operating budget. But, like I said who knows...

The best thing is to attend the public hearings----and bring up spawning area impacts. But, like I also said, everything is decided in NYS Fish and Wildlife at the top----. There's often zero biological reasons behind fisheries regulations. I've said that for decades. The bosses sit down in Albany and have their cups of coffee, sit around a table and chit chat about it. Then hand down the directives to the staff who are actually against certain proposals.

Fishing Regs change proposals are almost always the result of angler desires and input like all the Lake Ontario system changes last year....and bass reg changes a few years ago)....but who knows in this case
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Eperous
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by Eperous » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:54 am

mikevalla wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:32 am
... Who knows the rationale for the proposed changes---could be a combination of factors and zero to do with increasing fishing license income to offset losses elsewhere. I know that hunting license sales are massively down in NYS. That revenue is lost. Fishing licenses I always thought were on the rise. But all the $$ goes into the NYS Fish and Wildlife pot---So, there's a huge shortfall in their operating budget. But, like I said who knows...

The best thing is to attend the public hearings----and bring up spawning area impacts.
From my understanding, having attended two such meetings, the current trout fishing regs are 30 years old, and based upon catch rate... DEC wants to manage inland trout streams as either WILD or STOCKED... based upon stream biological, and other factors... and not necessarily angler catch rate... at the recent Newburgh public meeting DEC conducted, it was stated that sale of NYS angler licenses is flat, neither going up or down... this comment was not made by a DEC rep, but person in the audience who sits on some statewide sportsmen's committee...

There are several elements to the changes, and DEC will make their entire proposal available for public comment come January... these changes are the result of ALL DEC REGIONAL FISHERIES MANAGERS working together, with Albany staff... Mike Flaherty, our local Region 3 Manager has been involved with the get-go... and they are an outgrowth of what the public told DEC in 2017, at a series of public sessions on this topic... I seriously doubt DEC has been working in secret on this, but have held a series of statewide meetings REQUESTING public input/feedback...

There are many elements to the proposed changes, and I'm only suggesting folks read/learn about all of the changes, and perhaps not throw "the baby out with the bath water." Following the first meeting I attended I wrote a two-page letter that supported the "approach" DEC is trying to take while raising several concerns with it... I'm only suggesting individuals read, try to understand the entire proposal before shooting holes in it...

Here's the essence of what I know, and put in our November TU newsletter,

The essence of what we heard thus far includes the following. Trout streams will be managed/classified as reaches, that is, depending upon biological and other factors, stream sections can have different regulations. DEC hopes to classify stream reaches as either wild or stocked, and currently there are two distinct stocked classifications and three wild classifications. Stream reaches classified as wild will no longer be stocked, while stocked reaches will be stocked slightly differently, essentially spreading stocking out over longer periods of time on some waters, and less on others. Trout season--- where anglers can keep fish--- will run from April 1st through Oct. 15th, while Oct. 16th through March 31st of the following years anglers will be allowed to participate in “catch and release” angling on all public waters, using artificials--- lures/flies only. Additionally, all existing Special Regulation sections, like the Beaverkill and Willowemoc No Kills will remain intact, but no new special regulations will be created. An overriding DEC goal is to reduce the number of statewide fishing regulations while managing trout streams using a different approach.

mikevalla
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by mikevalla » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:40 am

Ed,
But unless DEC did updated surveys on all NYS Trout streams, how will they determine what "reaches" are "wild trout" waters and what reaches require stocking? Do they have updated data?

There's a little brook not far from here that is classified as being able to support natural trout reproduction. I questioned Region 5 about this classification and asked "when was the last bio survey completed?" Answer: 1972

It's now a slow moving mudhole, dammed up with very shallow beaver ponds that act as heat-sinks. The water is almost always warm. The "biologist" then told me he recently observed a giant school of brown trout ("wild") below a little bridge I'm familiar with. The water there is about 8ft wide and a few feet deep. So, I hung up the phone and went down to have a look. Yup---a school of 5"-8" fish. Only thing is they were all common Creek Chubs---along with a bunch of minnows.
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Eperous
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by Eperous » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:10 pm

mikevalla wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:40 am
... unless DEC did updated surveys on all NYS Trout streams, how will they determine what "reaches" are "wild trout" waters and what reaches require stocking?
One of the comments in the letter I wrote to DEC about this proposal, that I referenced above... I think in some cases they do, and others cases not so... I suggested they develop "a plan" to gather this data where lacking and challenged....

Perhaps it's not a perfect proposal/management plan, but is it better than what exists, and can it be improved upon... with public input, which they are seeking...

Ed

mikevalla
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by mikevalla » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:51 pm

Eperous wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:10 pm
mikevalla wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:40 am
... unless DEC did updated surveys on all NYS Trout streams, how will they determine what "reaches" are "wild trout" waters and what reaches require stocking?
One of the comments in the letter I wrote to DEC about this proposal, that I referenced above... I think in some cases they do, and others cases not so... I suggested they develop "a plan" to gather this data where lacking and challenged....

Perhaps it's not a perfect proposal/management plan, but is it better than what exists, and can it be improved upon... with public input, which they are seeking...

Ed


Some of the "reaches" idea might not be all that bad. When they surveyed, (fairly recently) the upper New York Battenkill (just downstream from the Vermont border)---they came up with almost all small wild fish. Few (if I recall correctly) of the browns that they typically stock in goodly numbers turned up---the "Special Regs" area is in the section. Battenkill expert Squish67 might recall the data. So, I wouldn't be surprised if DEC decided to not stock that area, or "mildly" stock that area and leave most of the stocking activity more downstream.

I'm most interested in hearing from our Squish67 on this issue, as it pertains to the Battenkill. :) Fire away, Squish!
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catskilljohn
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by catskilljohn » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:55 pm

I understand there are many pieces to this puzzle that need addressing. My thing, my “quest” you could call it, is fighting this “open season” idea. To allow these small streams to be open during the spawn is just wrong. It’s god damn wrong.

They can stock iffy streams, or don’t stock anything for that matter. I don’t understand why they stock many of the streams they currently do so maybe this change will better address that. But to let guys stomp around in small water where actively spawning fish are is WRONG.

I may not know the whole story, as I wasn’t at any of the meetings. Had I known what was on the table I would have certainly found a way to attend one. But one thing I really feel strongly about is this open season thing. I just have way too many horror stories and accounts to see where this would help anything. CJ
"Gentlemen,remove your hats,this is it"
"This is where the trout was invented?"
"Oh he existed in a crude,primitive form in Waltons England"
"But this is where they painted spots on him and taught him to swim"

ted patlen
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by ted patlen » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:18 am

It all comes down to money. that's the only logical assumption. We have the same ass backwards thinking up here.

The newest regulations for striped bass have set the size limits for keeper sized fish from 28 to 36 inches (not positive of those sizes but very close). The committee and the "biologists" have stated this is a "harvest" size. Regardless of the other factors involved the fact remains that the committee and the biologists are basically commercial fishermen so the concerns of this committee is clearly weighted towards them. Oh yeah, they have their fact findings and give the public the "greased interest mumbo jumbo, but the fact remains that they are targeting breeding females. Like your mindset about the people trampling alongtheu smaller tribe. it is just wrong.

I simply cannot understand the logic that if you target breeding adults (mostly females) you will not effect the striped bass population which , according to all reports is in major decline.

money

ted patlen
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Re: New regulations in region 3

Post by ted patlen » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:20 am

"that's greatest interest mumbo jumbo"

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